Debate with Malik Usman Part II 

Part I     Part II     Part III

Dear Usman, 

You wrote: 

Usman:
First of all, you must trust someone. it is not something needed to understand religion but, it is necessary social need.

Sina:
I agree. When I need surgery I go to a doctor and allow him to cut me and operate on me. I trust him. But the reason I trust him is because he has studied for so many years and has earned a degree. I trust him because I trust the institution that has examined him and gave him license to practice. If he did not have a license I would not have trusted him. If someone tells me he is a doctor and the only proof of his qualification is his own word I would be a fool to trust him. 

What is the qualification of the prophets? No one testified to their truthfulness but themselves. It would be foolish to accept them taking their words as the proof. We have to investigate and question their claim. How many people have investigated the religion that they believe? People trust their parents who trusted their parents …. Are Muslims allowed to question the truth of Muhammad’s claim? What will happen to them if they find out that Muhammad was not a messenger of God? Muhammad himself would not allow people to change their minds and would kill them. Can we trust such a person? 

Usman:
A simple example is of teachers. Without trusting them to be right, you will never learn to even write this what you are doing now. You have to trust them until you learn how to make others believe you (off course with your knowledge). But even then this trusting part remains necessary as you question on their basis.

Sina:
You can trust your teacher. But also you know that your teacher has earned his degree to teach. I am sure no school will hire someone as a teacher without checking that this person is qualified for the job. Even though students are free and they must question what the teacher tells them. During the middle ages, the scholastics called Socrates, Plato and Aristotle the great teachers and trusted them. If they wanted to know about anything they would read these great men. They did not feel the need for independent investigation. So for centuries wale was considered to be a fish because Aristotle had classified it as fish. But wale is not a fish. It is a mammal. Even great people make mistake. It is wise to be skeptic always. Learn from those who know but have an open mind and accept that everyone can make mistake.  

Usman:
Now next thing is that I don’t believe to be child of God. I think if He is my creator then He is my master not my father. I think that few people used this term to become holy and gain control over each and every life form. This also served to them as licensee to do what ever they want to. 

Sina:
This is a matter of semantics. Christians call themselves children of God and Muslims slaves of God. I personally prefer the Christian notion as it give them a closer and more loving relationship with their imaginary god. Why would god need slaves? This gives the impression that we humans are doing something for him. Is he benefiting from our service? In that case he is exploiting us for his own use. Muhammad was a very primitive man. He was a sick narcissist controlling person. When he said you are Allah’s slaves he meant you are his slaves. Allah was the alter ego of the prophet.  However, since I do not believe in a personal god, both these terms are absurd. That god is within your imagination and your relationship to him is purely subjective. 

Usman:
Then you said that sending a messenger to a corner of the world doesn’t make sense. But well what do you think; there were neither any global television networks, nor any Internet.

Sina:
That is why I say it makes no sense. God could have given humans television and Internet at once so this problem would have been taken care of. Or he could have sent thousands of messengers with the same message in every corner of the world. But god never helped humans in their scientific quest. We invented the television, the Internet and every other thing when we stopped believing in the mumbo jumbo of those prophets and tried to find our own way. 

Usman:
Religion is based on faith and faith needs no prove.

Sina:
That is precisely what I said. Therefore we have people believing in any absurd thing like cows being gods and Muhammad splitting the moon, etc. because faith needs no proof. That is plain and simple ignorance. That is why faith is for primitive people and doubt is for modern intelligent humans. It’s up to you to decide whether you want to think like primitive people or like intelligent people. 

Usman:
Following our parent’s religion isn’t the biggest question. Abraham left his father’s religion and asked him to do so, but his father didn’t agree and asked him to leave. Just imagine Abraham’s this act, in a place when his father used to make the idols himself.

Sina:
Following blindly one’s father’s religion is the source of all human ignorance, division, hatred and most of the wars and bloodshed. We perpetuate those fallacies and fight with each other to impose them on others. If we independently searched for the truth, we would have found that no one can find the absolute truth and we would have become understanding of each other instead of condemning each other, calling each other Kafir and Murtad as we do know. Also remember that Muhammad did not allow the people to follow the religion of their fathers. He killed them, and forced them to change their religion to Islam. Isn’t this contrary to what you say? 

Usman:
Now Ali, again about doubt and confusion, which are two names of one thing. If people fall in confusion they look for solution (just like me). Then they find someone or something (in my case you). Then some limits themselves while other continue their search (what I did). But sometimes the people who have fell in the confusion try to interpret the thing they don’t like in a completely new way, which is necessarily not right (like you). 

Sina:
Doubt and confusion are not the same. Being doubtful is being skeptical and not believing blindly something without evidence. But being confused is having a disordered mind. They are completely different things. As skeptical person has to be a clear thinker, an analyst and inquisitive; this requires a very orderly mind. You are confused on this matter. 

Usman:
When you criticized the religious scripts, you first talked about worshiping cattle etc, ok. Then of Muhammad’s miracle of splitting moon, which is proved by some scientifically.

Sina:
Now that you mention it and I realize that you are an open-minded person, I will tell you something that I usually don’t tell anyone, because if I do people think I am crazy. You know my great grand father was a holy man and it is reported that he split the Sun. This is true. Every one in his town saw this strange miracle. One half of the sun went to the East and the other to the West. Then they started to circulate the sky. But my great grand father pointed his walking stick at them and they were joined together again. I am very happy to have found someone intelligent and open minded like you who actually believe that splitting the moon and the sun are scientifically true. Now I can say this with more confidence and announce it to the entire world. If someone doubts, I will send him to you to tell him about the scientific part of it. 

Usman:
About Noah it is scientifically proved that Earth’s water level was way much higher and it has tremendously lowered. For just info addition, you know how petroleum is produced underground? You’ll find interesting links of it to Noah’s Ark and flood story.

Sina:
In order for the waters to cover the tip of all the mountains as it is said in the story of Noah, we need at least 10 times more water than there is in the Earth. The earth is  a close environment. Where did this much water come and where did it go? How the animals from South America, Australia and the rest of the world went to Canaan? Who informed them and gave them the address of Noah? There are millions of species, as of yet the scientists have not been able to complete the list of all the species of the animals, including insects and birds of this planet, how a handful of people like the old Noah and his sons could gather all of these animals? How these animals crossed the oceans? It takes a sloth, hours to go forward few meters. For a South American sloth to go to Canaan it would have taken a thousand years. How they got there? Where Noah lodged this many animals? How he fed them? Pandas eat bamboo and Koalas a certain Eucalyptus that do not grow in Canaan. Did these animals bring their own food along? How they were kept apart? Many animals are carnivores; what did they eat during this time? Please explain these questions scientifically.  

Usman:
I can talk about Miraj, and can talk on its scientific aspects too, but it will just increase the length of the e-mail. If you like me to tell you more about it, do let me know.

Sina:
I agree that Mi'raj is true. Read my own True Story of Mi'raj. 

Usman:
I don’t agree that doubt is way to knowledge. I think that it is need that is path to knowledge. Until you don’t need, you have no questions, and even if you have you would ask. Galileo questioned the traditional astronomy because he felt the uneasiness about accepting them, therefore he felt a need to investigate himself and let everyone be aware of it. 

Sina:
Now that I realized you are so intelligent. I allow you to think whatever you like. A man who believes that Miraj and splitting the moon is scientific is sure above these petty subjects.  You have already achieved the greatest knowledge of all. The rest is not that important.

Usman:
Sorry again, but have got some objections. Truth is the easiest path; it is the straightest path. Following it, you never need second thoughts, and you never have to make sure out of anything.   

Sina:
Truth is very hard to accept when you are cocooned in lies and deceit. Your emotional attachment to those lies makes it extremely painful to face the truth. For example, a child loves his father immensely. What will happen to him if someone tells him that his father is a thief? He cannot accept it. His emotions come in between and force him to deny it. His father might be a thief indeed, but it is not possible for this person to see that. That is why the acceptance of the truth is hard. Truth will set you free, but it is very bitter and hard to swallow. 

What is easy is faith. You can easily believe in anything if you allow yourself to believe it. As you said faith does not require proof. So you are free to believe in whatever pleases you and that is extremely easy.  

Usman:
Then you said that we all are created equal. By the way, by whom the creation you are talking about. You have often quoted me things already said by Muhammad. Islam first introduced the equal creation phenomina. Please avoid such, as you don’t believe on them. 

Sina:
No body has created us. Everything including the humans; have evolved. Also Muhammad never said all people are equal. He said all Muslims are equal (brothers). And surely he never said you and the rest of the world are equal to him. He wanted you and everyone else to obey him and listen to what he says. He did not care about your belief or mine. In fact he ordered the execution of anyone who disputed with him and disagreed with his views. He pretended to be the voice of God and disobedience of him is disobedience of God. This is not equality. Even if there is something that Muhammad said which is good, and believe me they are very few, that does not mean that he said if first. Good people have said good things since the beginning of time. No one has the copyright on them.

Usman:
And again you said that we need no guidance from any human. But as far as my study suggests, first it’s your parents whose guidance you want, like how to walk, talk, sleep and act. Then its teachers whose help is needed in studies and so on. Or simply our life is filled with guides. And have you ever seen a guide at a museum or at a historical place, you must consider them as wrong, right?? 

Sina:
I said mature people do not need guidance. People who are still passing the stages of infancy and childhood as far as their intellectual maturity is concerned need guidance. It seems that you still want someone to follow. So please read on and at the end of this article I will tell you whom to follow.

Usman:
You believe in science, and there is a term in biology called cells. They are the most [smallest] unit constituents of any living being. Long before it was proved to exist, it was accepted even then to exist, therefore, some people believed on a theory while some had faith on it. Then due to modern equipment scientist actually proved their existence and bang, it became a fact. But what do we get, a fact was widely accepted when it was even theory and just mere belief and faith of few? The cells when were believed and even before that, didn’t just ran away or vanished, and returned when they became fact. They were there as before, but just they were not visible. The same is applicable for Jinn.

Sina:
Belief in anything without evidence or proof is not logical and no rational person would do that. For example we know that the chance of having life and even intelligent life in other planets is immensely high. Both science and reason tell us that the same conditions that cause life to flourish in the Earth can exist in many planets outside our solar system and therefore given the colossal number of the stars and their planets in this universe, it is almost impossible that life is exclusive only to the Earth. But as long as we do not have evidence for that, this remains in the realm of theory. It will become a fact only after the evidence has been found. Now if people want to have faith in it or not that is their business, scientists don’t deal with faith. That is not a term they use in their vocabulary often. 

Now as far as the Jinn is concerned, this is a foolish idea. It is just as foolish as believing in gnome, elves, goblins, leprechauns and Santa Clause. This is not a subject that a mature and intelligent person would even talk about. It is embarrassing. But then again you are above that. You are so intelligent that believe in Miraj and splitting of the moon. So you may even believe in Jinns. As both of us said, beliefs do not need evidence.  

Usman:
Prove of Gravitation: 

Here in that Ayah, the penetration from the regions of the earth mean to fly. Penetration is not natural for human’s like for the birds. By the heaven it means “Gravitational Sphere”. Going beyond it doesn’t causes the gravity to finish but it becomes so less that even can be neglected. This region is 400 miles above the surface of the Earth and is also called “Micro-gravity Zone”. Penetrating through the earth: Today we see helicopters and airplanes flying. What they do is that they push the air down, causing a resultive force, pulling them up. When a helicopter starts to fly it don’t do it immediately, it takes some time, until the speed of wing rotation gets fast enough to push them up. 

And the airplane taxi on runway before take-off to get enough engine speed, enough to support their weight. This speed required is called escape speed. This is specifically defined as “ the required force by a material object to escape through the Gravitational field”. Same is with the mechanism of rockets, meant to take war heads, or to the trip to the space. 

And just for addition of info, the escape speed from the earth is 11.2 km/second, for moon 2.38 km/second, Ceres (asteroids) 0.64 km/second, for sun 618 km/second, for Sirius (white dwarf) 5200 km/second and for a neutron star it is approximately 200,000 km/second. 

Now just re-compare what Allah said and what the modern science says. Isn’t this the scientifically prove of this Ayah, that Allah asks man and jinn to escape if they can, all the vain it will be, if they do it with using sufficient force. 

Sina:
This is what I call pseudo-science. Pseudo-science is not science. It is sheer ignorance described in scientific jargon. I hope you understood what you wrote.

Usman:
I still want to hear about your definition of Rational thinking in detail, not a line on proving doubt and confusion to be the solution to all of our problems. 

Sina:
I think you should give up the idea of understanding Rational Thinking. I am not sure whether this is a faculty that one can teach to anther person. I think you should leave this subject aside for now. It is like having the talent of being a poet or a Musician. You can get some lessons in these subjects but you will never become a Dante Aleghieri or a Mozart. So for now, rational thinking is a little bit too early for you.  Let us not waste your time over it. You may like to start by playing chess or take a course in mathematics. These things can exercise your brain, which is something you need for becoming a rational thinker. 

Usman:
I also want to discuss the single principle but sorry, the article will just got lengthier, or too lengthy.

Ok you sometimes exaggerate. And why are you using Santa Clause too much, let’s leave the old man alone J. Ali, El and Il theory was intrusting but as you said it was myth then I just like reading them and that’s all. Just like one of Ram and abduction of his wife. 

Sina:
What escaped your attention was that I said Allah is the evolution of Enlil. If Enlil and El are myths so is Allah. 

Usman:

To me life becomes cool as it is meant to be when you starts to believe. You start believing in your family, in your friends and ultimately in the end even on your self.

Sina:
Belief in your family, friends and yourself is completely a different subject. Here we are talking about the potentials. Belief in religions is belief in dogmas. We use the same terms but we mean different things. I think you are adding apples with oranges. You are “confused”, not in “doubt” but “confused.” There is a difference between these two words also.

Usman:
Ar-Razi, IbnSina etc, will indeed be known around the world for good but Bukhari and Muslim, I don’t think that they did anything bad. They were like us, they questioned Allah and Muhammad, and lucky they that they learned to believe. And don’t worry I don’t like Mullahs of Afghanistan. I don’t even consider them Muslims; they are some one in there own category. Their hands are filled with blood of many innocent people. 

Sina:
These Mullahs think they are the true Muslims. If their hands are filled with the blood of many innocent people so was the hands of Muhammad. This man killed so many people in his 10 years of stay in Medina that is mind-boggling. Read the story of the Jews of Medina in my site for details. If these Mullahs kill is because they are following the sunnah of the Prophet.

Usman:
But you said, Islam’s glory will fade. I think it is reverse; Islam is the world’s fastest spreading non-Christian religion (according to Guinness Book of World Record).

Sina:
Muslims are growing in numbers not because people are flocking to Islam. The number of the converts to Islam is minimal compared to the number of of those who leave Islam. Muslims are growing in number due to excessively high birth index. This is typical of poor countries where the majority of people are uneducated. In the West they are also the fastest growing population because they are escaping from their own homes as economical and/or political refugees and are immigrating to the Kafir land in the search of better life in huge numbers. Though the number of Muslims is on the rise, the religion itself is dying. The majority of those who become educated cannot accept the mumbo jumbo of Islam and walk away. Islam is the fastest religion in demise. The biggest enemy of Islam is education.

Usman:
Also I want you to discuss Quranic Ayahs with me, ask me about anyone you like, I will be able to satisfy you. 

Sina:
Thank you very much, I guess you have done a great job of convincing my already. But now that you mention it. Please go to these questions and answer them. 

Usman:
At one place you answered my question and said that we might never find answer to our questions as you aren’t certain about it. But how you can ask others to follow you when you aren’t sure about it, yourself. 

Sina:
I think this is the third time I repeat the same thing. But looks like we are going in circles. Can you show me where I asked people to follow me? Isn’t my entire message a call to freethinking? Am I not saying doubt everything and find your own light? I don’t think you pay attention to what I write. 

Usman:
As you talk about scientific reasoning too much, do you know that you don’t only have to prove some theory wrong experimentally but you also have to present/submit you own alternative solution or the corrected theory. And most common example is Hutchison Effect.  

Sina:
No, that is not true at all. You can reject any theory before having another theory to replace it. These are two different things. You don't have to keep believing in something that is proven to be false just because you have not found the right answer yet.

Usman:
A question for you: DO YOU WANT A SECULAR WORLD? OR DO YOU WANT THE RELIGIONS TO MODIFY? 

Sina:
I want religion stay out of public life completely, from schools, from government from anything that is public and belongs to all citizens. You can continue to believe in Miraj, Noah’s Ark and splitting the moon, but keep it to your self. 

Usman:
At another place in article and at your website you talked about abusing Women under Islam. Come on, these are just illiterate people, or people who are under the influence of those people who “misuse religion” do so. In Islam, if some one finds his wife to be of bad character he is asked to leave her, and if he has to punish her it shouldn’t be harder then hitting with MUSWAAK. And we all know

MASWAAK doesn’t hurt.

Sina:
Looks like you did not read much from my Website. If you read the articles about the status of women, you’ll see that what I and other writers have written is based on Quran and the way Muhammad dealt with women. Moreover the Quran (4:34) does not talk about "meswaak" or anything else. It just say beat your wives if they are disobedient. It is inhumane to beat a woman even if it is with a flower stem. What do you want to achieve by this beating? to establish your dominance? Are we humans animals to establish dominance over each other especially when it comes to women who are physically  smaller than us? The whole concept is animalistic and shameful. Any man who try to defend Muhammad and make an apology for this brutal teaching is a subhuman.

Usman:
Ali now a major change in policy announcement. I have decided to discuss all this with you in a new way, as I have found a way to put an end to my confusion.

I have decided to discuss from now on as a Muslim, while you do as you want. We will discuss on the policy of “convince or be convinced”. In the end if I convince you then you might join Islam again and if you win then vice versa.

This will result in long term satisfaction on both sides.

 I hope that you agree.

     Wishes

     Malik Usman

Sina:
I also like to announce a major change in policy. From now on I declare myself the messenger of God and will prove it to you using exactly the same proofs that Muhammad used, i.e. nothing. As you said, faith does not need proof. So if you have no problem accepting Muhammad as a true messenger of God without any proof you should not have any problem accepting me. And after I prove to you that I am a messenger of God, you must promise to become my follower and obey me until you live. My mission in life is to encourage people not to follow another human being. For others I will maintain this position, but since you are so intelligent that can prove Miraj, Jinn, Noah’s Ark and splitting the moon are scientific and since you think it is necessary to follow someone blindly but it is not necessary that this someone prove his claim because as you say "faith needs no proof", I will declare myself to be your Prophet. I receive daily emails from God. I will share those messages with you. If you are in doubt please tell me by what proof you accepted Muhammad and I will match or beat those proofs.

Sincerely

Ali Sina

To continue go to part III