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Ryan on Sikhism
Ryan Ryan <ryan_american@yahoo.com> Ryan Responds to Ali Sina on Sikhism:
Hi Ali,
I sent you an e-mail about 2 days ago and havent recieved a reply, so I guess
youre busy. Here is my response to your Sikhism debate. Please add it when you
have the chance. I have dissected this argument so I can make my points easier. Ali
– “Dear Dr. John Smith, Thanks
for the email. First of all let me assure you that I have not embarked on the
mission to destroy all the religions. If the belief in a religion makes you
happy and content, please go for it. My
purpose in writing is to fight against hate not against faith. There are many
religions that preach good things. Buddhism, Zoroastrianism and Baha'i are the
examples. Even there is lots of goodness in Christianity.” Yes Ali,
there are good things in these religions but there are also some absurdities
right? I mean many absurdities regardless of the way they are interpreted? I
mean literal ones not philosophical ones (depending on the philosophy of
course!). “I
am afraid I have little knowledge of Sikhism. I cannot agree or disagree with
your enthusiasm about this religion. I admit that my knowledge of Sikhism is
very superficial.” Well Ill
try and help you out there. “I
live in a part of Canada that has a big population of Sikhs. They have many
temples here and we often hear they fight over ridiculous things like whether
they should sit on chairs or on the floor.” Well
Sikhs are only human and do not necessarily reflect their faith. There are many
African Americans who are criminals, doesn’t mean the actual ‘race’ is bad
right? “There
has been also some shootings and assassinations among the moderate and the
fundamentalist faction of the Sikhs over, who should be in control of the temple
and handle the funds.” Still,
that’s a political and financial dispute, it’s not over the actual religion
they are fighting. “You
perhaps have more information of the tenets of Sikhism, but as Christ said,
"you'll know them by their fruits".” Jesus
said a lot of things, they weren’t all necessarily ‘good’. In a way Christ
had a good point but that doesn’t mean this standard is the right one to apply
in all cases. Again if we look at the African Americans, they have a high crime
rate and a high prison population. Doesn’t mean that all black people are bad
does it? Most likely it’s the environment they are bought up in. “When
I see the Sikhs, I do not see much difference between them and the rest of the
people.” Well
they’re only human. “As
the matter of fact many of them are shrewd businessmen but many people try not
to deal with them because of their bad reputation. (unreliable, bad service,
etc)” Bill
Gates is a very shrewd businessman, he is famous for it, his company’s
products are often criticized as being of poor quality and functionality, it
still doesn’t make him a bad person does it? He has given away millions to
charity and poor people! “I
personally have great business associates among them and have been dealing with
them for years.” So at
least you know that they are not ALL bad. :-) “I
have had bad experiences with some of them but those with whom I stay put are
trustworthy and I am very pleased of them.” Well
like I said, there’s always a few who spoil the party. “As
I said my intention is not to fight religions. I want to fight hateful doctrines
not false beliefs.” Good and
noble goal, I wish you well. “I
personally would not endorse any belief system.” Why?
Have you studies ALL religions? “I
encourage rational thinking, independent thinking and freethinking.” Good, so
do I, and so does Sikhism. Sikh literally means a ‘seeker of truth’ “Religious
thinking is opposed to that.” Yes,
most religions are, but not Sikhism. “In
any religion you have a guru, a prophet or a messenger who is inspired by
superior knowledge and all the the rest are followers.” True to
a point but not in Sikhism. In this religion, its Gurus (literally meaning
‘Teachers’) taught people to stop believing in nonsense ideas and pointless rituals.
They encouraged free thinking and the use of common sense. The religion started
in a place called Punjab, in the modern day country of India, it began in the
1400’s. India was ruled by the Muslims at that time, but the majority religion
was Hinduism. The Gurus pointed out the absurdities in both and said that the
Hindu ‘caste system’ and ill treatment of women was wrong. They stated that
ALL people are equal, they even said that they were not superior in anyway, they
were ordinary people who believed in goodness and love of all humanity, they
want to encourage others to think they same way. Sikhism is the only religion
which clearly says that “Women are equal to men”, as well as many other
noble teachings. I know Baha’I claims the same about equality but Sikhism said
it first! Ali why do we go to school? Because we need to learn about things we
don’t know and to get educated in general as well as to become ‘better’
people. The teachers are more or less our guides, they teach us important
information etc. “Independent
thinking is encouraged as long a it does not contradict with the thinking of the
leader.” Not in
Sikhism, it says that you are allowed to think anything you want, you are
allowed to question everything in it. I have done it myself and have come to the
conclusion it’s a great faith. But Ill explain that later. “This
brings stagnation of thought. One is given certain liberties to think on his own
but s/he is not allowed to exceed the limits set by the original guru.” Again, not the case in Sikhism. In fact, Sikhism is quite in tune with Science. It is the only religion I have seen that doesn’t go against evolution! Also Doctor Smith in his initial post mentioned some other facts in Sikhism. This is quite amazing when you consider that the religion is more than 500 years old and nobody else knew that information in the 1400’s!. “The
words of prophet or the guru are the ultimate balance to distinguish between the
right and the wrong.” No Ali,
in Sikhism, the Gurus only guide you to be a better person, they encourage you
too look for knowledge and to better your life and of those around you. If a
problem comes up then the words of the Guru are there to guide you but you
don’t have to follow them if
you ‘think’ you know better. However, I haven’t seen anything bad in the
Sri Guru Granth Sahib (SGGS), the Sikh holy scriptures which gives bad advice.
Theres a lot of great advice. “I
recall few years ago there was a legal fight where the Sikhs wanted to enter
into RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) and keep their turban.” So what?
What’s wrong with that? “In
my opinion this was the sign of backwardness because it showed that the
followers of Sikhism are unable to adapt with time. “ No Ali,
this is not backwardness, now you are applying your own personal standards of
what is ‘modern’ – what gives YOU that right? Tomorrow some young high
school kid might tell you that you’re ‘1970’s’ style hair cut is
‘backward’ Now would that be right? :-) Does that mean that the young man is
right? No, because even if we ignore the religious reason, its can still be all
about personal choice. Many people wear a baseball cap, is that backwards? They
as citizens have every right to be treated equally. Wearing a turban is a symbol
of their faith. There is no harm in them wearing it. Or do you feel it is
harmful in some way? “I
was sorry when the politicians bent the rule and allowed Sikh police wear
turbans because they wanted their votes.” Ali, are
you intolerant or what? If you are getting mugged or about to be killed and some
guy with comes and saves your life, are you gonna say “no don’t save me, you
have a turban on!”? Who cares? How does it get in the way of him saving your
life? Also how did they bend a rule? Not all rules are right are they? Look at
how many laws get repealed. Only as recently as 1993, millions of people were
treated as second class citizens in South Africa (their OWN country!). It was
the law that blacks can not go in white areas! Now tell me, was it wrong for the
politicians to repeal the evil Apartheid rules? Was it right for Nazi Germany to
make laws to persecute Jews? Was Gandhi right to break the ‘salt’ law in
which he asserted his right to go to the sea and make salt? Not all laws are
necessarily right or good. “All
those good teachings that you attribute to Sikhism exist in many other
religions.” Yes but
other religions also have absurdities which are absurd beyond belief. Sikhism
doesn’t have these absurdities. I am not talking about the philosophical parts
of a faith as philosophy is open to interpretation. When some guy said “The
World is your oyster” he didn’t mean it in the litteral sense. Do you see my
point? I mean the parts like when it says “kill all the unbelievers” in the
Koran. This isn’t philosophy, this is a CLEAR instruction. It is absurdities
like these I am talking about. “As
a matter of fact” FACT?
Careful Ali, now you may be jumping to some obscure conclusions :-) “Bahaism
is the most advanced doctrine.” Really?
Based on what? I beg to differ Ali. Ill do this later in the debate. But I
seriously think that the Baha’i faith is fundamentally flawed. “Bahais
also do not have that negative image that the Sikhs have left of themselves like
their outdated dress code,” Again
you apply YOUR own standards, what if a kid says “Hey Ali, whats with the
grandfather 70’s clothes?” Again on what grounds do you say it is outdated?
Clothes are clothes. What about mini skirts? They came out in the 60’s and
went out. They are back in again. Indian women have worn saris (a long cloth
type garment wrapped around there bodies) for 5000 years, they still wear them.
Again my learned friend just because YOU consider something outdated, doesn’t
mean it is. Clothes are a part of individual choice. Also they are optional, not
mandatory. “hair
code,” Symbolic
only, it is not mandatory but again, what’s wrong with long hair? There are
many people in Scandanavian countries who have long hair, again there are many
Sikhs who have hair cuts too. There is a choice. “ceremonial
dagger” This is
a symbolic item, it is actually meant for protection of the weak and defenceless.
It doesn’t have to be a big dagger in this day and age, you can get a key ring
size one. Its all symbolic nowadays Ali. But in some countries you would do well
to carry one. In Mughal India, they had to carry one as they were being heavily
persecuted. These days of course there is no persecution, now its like the cross
that Christians wear, only symbolic. “and
a history of violence.” Depends
on which violence your talking about Ali, if you actually read Sikh history then
you’ll see that they fought in both World Wars against the Nazis and many
defensive wars in India against the Islamic invaders and persecutors. You should
know what this feels like because your own country Iran is a defeated nation,
whereas Sikhs are not. (no offence) Violence is not always a bad or evil thing,
sometimes it makes the difference between survival and extinction! “You
praised the Sikhs for their bravery and for fighting against Islam. In my
opinion Baha'is are much more brave for facing Muslims without any fight, sword
or violence.” Even I
praise them for their bravery. The Doctor is right to do so. Ali, if you knew
anything about Indian history then you’ll understand why the Sikhs HAD to
fight. The Baha’I were in Iran in the 19th century, by this time Islam in Iran
was nothing compared to tyrannical Mughal India. The Baha’I would have been
wiped out in 16th century India, like the millions of non-violent Buddhists in
Sindh province were!. The Sikhs used non-violence for 200 years but it didn’t
soften the Muslims resolve to convert them by force. 80
million Hindus were slaughtered because of using non-violence, tell me, how much
crap should a person put up with? Until they are nearly wiped out? Look at
Bangladesh, Pakistan, Kashmir etc. They are Muslim majority nations, you know
why? Because they didn’t fight back, they were defeated and are now enslaved
in Islam. Sounds similar to Iran. Where did non-violence get the Buddhists in
Afghanistan? They were crushed easily
and were forced converted to Islam, the effects of which are still being felt
today. (Taliban etc.) “This
is bravery.” No Ali,
non-violence when taken to absurd limits is sheer STUPIDITY! Not bravery. When a
person is willing to risk their own neck for the sake of others, that is
bravery. When one fights back to protect their people and family, their rights
to freedom and liberty, instead of ‘submitting’ like a coward, that is
bravery. Gandhi was a believer in non-violence and it worked against the
British, because they had a conscience, against Hitler he would have been
crushed mercilessly. “Anyway,
I do not wish to refute any religion if that religion does not advocate violence
or threaten the peace of the world.” That’s
cool with me. “But
I have chosen not to be a follower.” Nor me,
but there’s nothing wrong with being a student right? Nothing wrong with learning is there? “I
was a follower and now I am a freethinker.” I’m a
free thinker too. Well at least I like to think so. “Freethinking
is better.” Yes it
is. “I
think the desire to be a follower (of any religion) stems from the fact that
people are not yet mature and like children do not have the self reliance to
choose their own ways.” True,
but what if an ideology promotes free thought anyway, then what’s wrong with
that? I mean I vote for the republican party, I agree with their ideology,
doesn’t mean I cant think for myself does it? Just means that I agree with
them, that’s all. “They
need someone else telling them what is right and what is not.” Yes and
No. In school we do a lot of things, some are good and some are bad. We need
teachers to tell us the difference sometimes. Same in adulthood, we still
sometimes cannot distinguish between right and wrong because we ALL have
different value systems. For example, my friend, she works in a hotel, she
steals their stuff, stationary, towels, toiletries etc. I think she is wrong but
she thinks she right, she says that there is no harm in it, the hotel makes
millions in profit, what’s a few bucks worth of items? But I still say its
stealing but she doesn’t agree! See what I mean? My values are not necessarily
the same as hers. So sometimes we need some ‘guidance’ right? “It
is interesting however, that the same brainwashed followers brag about the good
teachings of their religions to prove that their way is better.” True,
but not in Sikhism, they don’t look for converts, people become Sikh of their
own free will once they learn about the faith. Also there’s nothing wrong with
comparing ideologies is there? If we didn’t compare the ideologies of
political parties we wouldn’t know who to vote for right? “One
wonders if they know that these teachings are good, they must have used their
own judgment, and if they have used their own judgment then they are perfectly
capable to distinguish between the good and the bad.” Not
necessarily Ali, like I said about my friend who steals petty items, there are
many gray areas. There are many things we sometimes are not sure about. For
example, human cloning, there are lots of people who are for it and lots against
it. Same with Abortion, so many people cant make up their minds. That’s where
we could do with the help of a ‘guide’ right? Also many people follow
ideologies they themselves agree with. If I vote republican, or for Bush, then I
do so because I agree with the party politics. If I agree with a religion a
great deal, and it makes sense to me, then
why not use its guidance? I might get to a point in my life where I might have
to make a tough decision, the religion might have the answer I am looking for?
Do u see my point? “So
why they need these religions to begin with? You enumerated all the good
teachings of Sikhism. If you KNOW that these are good teachings, why you need to
follow someone to tell you what you already know?” Because
Ali, as well as the reasons I have explained above, a person like the good
Doctor is probably a middle aged man with a university degree and years of solid
education behind him, I am sure he wasn’t born with all that intelligence and
knowledge he has? It took him years to attain that level of knowledge and
wisdom. However, most people are not as good as him or you. Most people are not
Doctors and do not go to universities etc. They do not get the chance to develop
their minds, and it is these people that religion (Well Sikhism anyway) can
help. It can help intelligent people too, but especially the ignorant people who
believe in nonsense and cannot use their own
minds, the ones who still believe in fairy tales. Sikhism is not like other
‘religions’, it does not claim absolute truth and knowledge. It doesn’t
not make silly claims like the Bible and Koran etc. Although
there are many fascinating scientific concepts in it. “What
if this person you want to follow tell you: "kill the unbelievers, beat
your wife or cut the hands of the thief" would you still follow him
blindly?” Ali,
Sikhism doesn’t say that, nor does it ask you to ‘follow’ blindly, it asks
you to use your own logic and
rational thinking. Sikhism is supposed to be a guide. It believes in one
‘God’ or ‘creative force’ or ‘life force’ and its real aim is to
help you ‘reach’ God. “If
you believe in him you should. But if you take the exception to these barbaric
teachings then you are using your independent thinking and in that case
following a guru or a prophet is superfluous.” No Ali,
it depends on an individuals value system. Although I don’t agree with
‘killing’ there are many who do. Not everyone is ‘good’ or
‘humanistic’ – Someone like Hitler would have no problem in killing
someone else. Also in Sikhism the Guru doesn’t ask you to follow him, they ask
you to follow your own common sense. Sikhism believes in God, which is the only
thing you can try to make an argument against. But I can even answer that it you
want, but Ill let you ask me first of how I can come to a LOGICAL conclusion
that a ‘God’ or ‘creative force’ exists! Also you are Ryan
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